The one for which the Orangemen have been wielding their ceremonial swords on the streets.
They truly have no concept of how foreign most British people regard them as being. I cannot imagine that people from the Republic look at Northern Nationalists and see anything much to do with themselves, either.
They truly have no concept of how foreign most British people regard them as being. I cannot imagine that people from the Republic look at Northern Nationalists and see anything much to do with themselves, either.
Abortion has breezed through in the Republic, which the Church said at the time of the adoption of its Constitution was an anti-Catholic state and which has never been anything else. Same-sex "marriage" will do likewise.
Can you imagine any mainstream party in Britain withdrawing the Whip for failure to vote a certain way on abortion? Can you imagine the outcry if any party in Ireland withdrew the Whip for failure to vote against abortion? Yet the Whip is being withdrawn from those in Ireland who failed to vote in favour of abortion.
Can you imagine any mainstream party in Britain withdrawing the Whip for failure to vote a certain way on abortion? Can you imagine the outcry if any party in Ireland withdrew the Whip for failure to vote against abortion? Yet the Whip is being withdrawn from those in Ireland who failed to vote in favour of abortion.
Not the sole blame, but not the least of it, attaches to what was once the Irish Labour Party, long ago taken over entirely by the old Stickies of the lifestyle-based "Democratic Left". Their old Sinn Féin brothers-in-arms from way back also, with one exception, voted in favour of what is, after all, their open and longstanding party policy.
(The Workers' Party from which "Democratic Left" and, arguably, the present Sinn Féin organisation both seceded, by contrast, used to be opposed even to the introduction of contraception into Ireland, correctly seeing it as a device to prevent the rise of the Irish working class and to arrest economic development by ensuring that there were not enough workers to bring it about. That is not to excuse or to minimise that party's many faults. But there we are.)
Meanwhile, though, the elaborate cross-party requirements in order to get anything very much done in Northern Ireland are such that neither abortion nor same-sex "marriage" could ever happen there. Largely thanks to the Unionist parties on the first issue. And now almost entirely so on the second issue, since the SDLP seems to have sold out.
"the Republic... an anti-Catholic state"
ReplyDeleteHave you gone mad?
The Republic of Ireland is the most Catholic country in Europe-and the last place in Europe to retain an outright ban on abortion.
Ireland was such a Catholic Country that, when the idea of limited state healthcare for mothers was first touted in the 50's, Archbishop McQuaid and the Catholic establishment went into open revolt, as they feared state welfare would break up the married family (as indeed it did) and smash the Catholic Church's monopoly on welfare in Ireland.
My parents, both Irish (Cork and Donegal respectively) would laugh out loud at your post.
Only somebody who has never been to Ireland could write such drivel.
Ah, the old fantasy! Where shall we begin? Here would do - http://davidaslindsay.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/irelands-real-powers-that-be.html
ReplyDeleteAbortion is still illegal in Northern Ireland. And it always will be. Perhaps your parents should move there?
Read about McQuaid and the story of the Irish Catholic welfare state. You might learn something.
ReplyDeleteYou may even read Frank McCourt's bitter anti-Catholic rants to understand just how Catholic Ireland was.
The Irish abortion vote was whipped because it had to be-the European Court of Human Rights (the same one that guarantees a 'right to life' but only for guilty murderers) had forced its hand.
My parents are Catholics-they don't need to move to a jurisdiction where abortion is illegal, to understand that it's wrong.
It's not a "fantasy"-all my cousins live in that country, which I visit regularly, and I can tell you it remains deeply Catholic.
Except that it just doesn't. Very rural areas, perhaps (although possibly not even all of those), but that is a rapidly declining section of the population.
ReplyDeleteThis Bill has gone through, easily yet still with party sanctions against opponents. That speaks for itself.
I deal with McCourt and his ilk in the post to which I referred earlier. And with much else besides. You should read it.
Catholic Ireland is a myth. If there is still any outpost of it on that island, then it is in the part that is still in the United Kingdom.
But in the sense that most people, including you, mean, there has never really been any such place.
"there has never really been any such place"
ReplyDeleteThen explain to me why the Catholic Church ran practically its entire education system and welfare state until very recently.
The Government and police colluded in the cover-up of Catholic sex abuse scandals at Catholic schools, orphanages and Churches across Ireland precisely because the Church is so embedded in Irish culture that protecting the Irish Church's reputation was more important to many than protecting Irish children.
I'm not saying that was a good thing, either.
Changing the subject, I see.
ReplyDeleteBut every word of that is highly disputable. A generation hence, no serious person will still believe much, if any, of it. You read it here first.
From the link:
ReplyDeleteBut the Irish Republic never really was a Catholic country. Well into the 1960s, more than 40 years after Irish independence, Guinness refused to employ Catholics in any managerial capacity and was owned by the dynasty that provided four successive Conservative Members of Parliament for Southend, a town a mere 40 miles from the centre of London. The last one, a former Cabinet Minister under Margaret Thatcher, did not retire until 1997 and did not die until 2007. Everything that you probably think that you know about Ireland is wrong.
There is much emphasis on land reform as having allegedly broken the power of the Ascendancy. But in fact the Anglo-Irish Protestants continued to own everything from the breweries, to the banks, to such things as Merville Dairy, all of which practised frank anti-Catholic discrimination in employment for many decades after independence, as in a different way the great concerns of the present day still do.
No even nominal Catholic was made Editor of The Irish Times until as recently as 1986, 64 years after independence. It is also notable that even in 2013 one of the Governors of The Irish Times Trust has the OBE while another has nothing less than the CBE; such, quite amusingly and very tellingly, is the Irish Republic's newspaper of record.
There is not and never has been any Catholic or even Christian symbol on the flag of the Irish Republic, although it does have an Orange stripe on it, for which there is a reason. The Church vigorously, but unsuccessfully, opposed the adoption of the Constitution there under de Valera in 1937. Everything in that last sentence tells you something important.
The country that once discriminated against Catholics in favour of Protestants now discriminates against such practising Catholics as there still are, a far lower proportion of the Catholic population than in England and quite possibly a lower absolute number; whereas Ireland now ordains almost no new Catholic priests, England now ordains more than in the 1950s.
(There were more ordinations for service in English dioceses in the 1950s, but those ordinations were largely, perhaps mostly, in Ireland, or of Irishmen who had in many cases never seen England, or both. There are now vastly more ordinations in England, for service in England, of men produced by the English dioceses, than there were in that supposedly Golden Age, which ended remarkably quickly and easily if it was so wonderful.)
Today's discrimination in the Irish Republic, and it would seem also increasingly within political and cultural Republicanism in Northern Ireland, is in favour of wallowers in each others' published and unpublished, spoken and written misery memoirs of embittered ex-Catholicism.
They know their own to be packs of lies, and sometimes utterly preposterous, such as the supposed persistence of corporal punishment in schools decades after it had been abolished. But they assume everyone else's to be genuine. They therefore see themselves as somehow expressing a broader truth. And in any case, it is the only way to get on.
Far from there having been some taboo against criticising the Church until Mary Robinson became President in 1990, this sort of thing goes back at least to George Moore, and it has made the fame and fortune of many a mediocre to downright abysmal writer, with Frank McCourt only the latest in a very long line.
Moreover, being able to produce this drivel to interviewers is now the only way to become any sort of public or responsible figure in the Irish Republic. In the way that being a posh Protestant with a too-perfect upper-class English accent remained long, long, long after independence.
I have read the article-I'd have to write an essay to rebut that.
ReplyDeleteBut here's a number of key points you omit to even mention, which demolish your case.
The 1937 constitution recognised the "special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church" in Ireland.
Most hospitals in the Republic were run by the Church-hence McQuaid opposed even the 1950 Mother and Child Act.
Many Irish hospitals still are-the Mater Misericordiae University Hospital in Dublin is run by the Sisters of Mercy.
The Irish Catholic Church ran almost all public secondary schools, following partition, to the extent that the Irish Church opposed the Government secondary schools introduced in 1968.
The Irish Republic allowed the Catholic Church to take back control of the national primary school system from the state.
The Republic banned divorce, abortion, pornography and many books and films due to enormous Catholic Church influence.
Abortion was outlawed again in a 1983 Constitutional Amendment, with Church support.
Divorce remained prohibited until 1996!
96.2% of the Free State's population was Catholic upon partition (compare that with the North); many Protestants and Anglicans fled Ireland due to the discrimination and attacks upon them during this period.
Would you like to discuss this further?
The 1937 constitution recognised the "special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church" in Ireland.
ReplyDeleteWhich didn't impress the Church. She opposed that Constitution. She has turned out to have been right. The phrase is meaningless.
Most hospitals in the Republic were run by the Church
Not as such. She administered them, that was all. For the perfectly good reason that she had founded most or all of them.
Many Irish hospitals still are
Not for much longer, I'd wager. But you get that sort of thing in America, for example. Is America the Jewel in the Crown of Holy Mother Church?
The Irish Catholic Church ran almost all public secondary schools
Likewise. And before 1968, indeed for a generation or more thereafter, even those British state schools not actually run and often owned by churches, only about two thirds of the total then or now, had a very special relationship with one or more of them such as largely amounted to the same thing. Those were the times.
The Irish Republic allowed the Catholic Church to take back control of the national primary school system from the state.
What does that even mean? And again, not for much longer.
The Republic banned divorce, abortion, pornography and many books and films due to enormous Catholic Church influence.
It inherited all of those laws from before independence, and they remained in place in Britain at the same time.
Abortion was outlawed again in a 1983 Constitutional Amendment, with Church support.
Well, the Church could hardly have opposed that, could She? And that does mean that such was not the law until 61 years after independence. If the newly enacted law is within the terms of that amendment, then that amendment was worthless in the first place. It has merely taken 30 years for that to become evident.
Divorce remained prohibited until 1996!
Meaning that it is now at least a generation since there was any significant Catholic influence on public policy.
96.2% of the Free State's population was Catholic upon partition
Defined how? But in any case, next to no one goes to Mass regularly there anymore, and the figure is continuing to decline even from that low base. There are probably more practising Catholics in England, and certainly a far higher observant proportion of the nominally Catholic population.
Name an Catholic intellectual, as such, in Ireland, living or dead. Go on. Have a go.
Whether the Church opposed it or not, Catholicism was at the heart of the Republic's Constitution, unlike other European Constitutions we can think of.
ReplyDeleteThe Church became far more heavily involved in both healthcare and education after 1922, than it ever was before.
However, we introduced easy divorce in 1967, yet the Irish couldn't get it through until 1996-which tells you something about how heavily Catholic that country remains.
Likewise Ireland's contraception laws which, even after 1970, were still incredibly restrictive thanks to Catholic influence.
Schools and hospitals are not merely "administered" but run by the Church-to the extent that the hospital I named in Dublin wouldn't even conduct cancer drug trials because the patients might have to use contraception in the process!
Ireland's divorce, contraception and abortion laws were much stricter than anywhere else in Europe until very recently.
Christian influence on public policy is declining everywhere in the West so that has nothing to do with this discussion, since that sad trend certainly isn't limited to Ireland.
It remains the case however, that Ireland was until very recently a strongly Catholic country.
As for your point about the US Catholic Church, it never ran anything like as much of America's education and healthcare system, proportionately, as the Irish Church did.
ReplyDeleteOther Christian Churches are serious rivals to the Catholic Church over there. They certainly aren't in Ireland.
Its simply silly to compare the two.
Catholicism was at the heart of the Republic's Constitution, unlike other European Constitutions we can think of.
ReplyDeleteBritain, perhaps. Or countries with little or no Catholic population. Or the Soviet Bloc when it was the Soviet Bloc. But one line, and even that did not actually mean anything in practical terms. Hardly "at the heart".
The Church became far more heavily involved in both healthcare and education after 1922, than it ever was before.
There was far more healthcare and mass education to do in the twentieth century than ever before. That was not a peculiarly Irish phenomenon. Nor, including in these Islands, was the Church's prominence in that greatly expanded provision.
However, we introduced easy divorce in 1967, yet the Irish couldn't get it through until 1996-which tells you something about how heavily Catholic that country remains.
We did not introduce easy divorce, rather than fairly hard divorce (before that, there had been only very hard divorce), until exactly that same year, 1996. But even that was only one generation after 1967. And it means that Catholic influence, as such, was already negligible in the Irish Republic as long ago as 1996.
Ireland's divorce, contraception and abortion laws were much stricter than anywhere else in Europe until very recently.
Much stricter than Britain's, perhaps. Or than those in, say, the Netherlands. But not than "anywhere else in Europe". And how recently is "very recently"?
It remains the case however, that Ireland was until very recently a strongly Catholic country.
There was a very high Sunday Mass attendance rate until perhaps a generation and a half ago, although no more recently than that, but again I ask you to name anyone who ever made a contribution to Irish intellectual life specifically as an orthodox and observant Catholic, or anyone from Ireland who ever made a contribution to the intellectual life of orthodox and observant Catholicism, as such.
Oh, and the Divorce Reform Act was in 1969, although the point still stands.
ReplyDeleteAs does my earlier one about America.
Apologies for the delay in replying.
ReplyDeleteLabour's Divorce Reform Act did indeed introduce easy divorce in Britain-make no mistake about it.
It introduced easy, no-fault divorce after just two years separation. The "no-fault" component, in particular, destroyed marriage as an institution, as did the replacement of adultery or cruelty with "irreconcilable differences" (which can mean anything) as the new criteria.
And the figures prove this Act destroyed marriage.
By 1961 there were just 27,000 divorces in Britain.
Following the 1969 Divorce Reform Act, this figure instantly trebled to 125,000 divorces by 1972!
Marriage itself has been declining in Britain ever since that 1969 Act.
In Ireland, by contrast, divorce was still illegal as recently as 1996.
As for America-there's no comparison.
America isn't, and never was, a Catholic Country, because of the extent and power of rival Christian Churches over there (when did Ireland have a powerful Evangelical political movement?).
The Irish Catholic Church has no serious rivals (96% of Irish citizens were Catholics, upon partition)
But, crucially, the Irish Catholic Church was the sole provider of education, welfare and healthcare for many years-that was never the case in America.
Would you like any more explanations of why your America analogy is ridiculous?
Continued...
ReplyDeleteAs to your second last post.
Catholicism was placed at the heart of the Republic's identity by its own Constitution-unlike the secular EU, the secular US or indeed the secular post-Revolutionary France.
Which other European country explicitly places Catholicism at the heart of its 20th-century Constitution?
Ireland had tougher abortion and divorce laws than anywhere else in Europe as of 1996.
Irish abortion laws are still so utterly different to those of mainland Europe that they've drawn the explicit condemnation of the European Court of Human Rights (the first time it has condemned any European nation for its abortion laws).
The decline in Irish congregations is not a phenomenon unique to Ireland (if you think it is, you need to get out more).
Africa is about the only place where Catholic congregations are increasing, according to the latest surveys.
The point was that it was directly following Ireland's partition that the Church was given primary responsibility for its school and healthcare system.
That is not because there was suddenly "more to do" but because Ireland was explicitly a Catholic country.
I've already addressed your laughable point about "fairly hard divorce" in my earlier post today-suffice it to say, it wasn't.
If you think divorce exploded and marriage declined in Britain after 1996 (and not 1969)you've been living in a basement.
The divorce rate shot up to 172,000 in three years following Labour's introduction of easy divorce.
The results were entirely predictable-and nothing like Ireland's tough Catholic divorce laws at the time.
Oh, where to begin? With this Bill would do. "At the heart of the Constitution," indeed! The Church saw through that one at the time, all the way back in 1937. More fool anyone who has only just caught up. Or, as in your case, has still not managed to do so.
ReplyDeleteThis Bill was caused by Ireland's membership of the secular European Union-it was one of the main reasons the Irish were persuaded to vote down the EU Constitution in 2008. The threat of legal abortion, publicised by EU opponents, played a key role in that vote.
ReplyDeleteAn independent Ireland would simply never have even proposed this legislation.
As it is, abortion supporters say its too restrictive.
I am not convinced of that.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, I am quite convinced otherwise.
Most European countries do not have laws like this one, never mind like ours.
If anything, the influence here is American.
Oh, it's true-this was never in Kenny's manifesto (he wouldn't have won if it was) and no Irish Prime Minister has tried anything like this before now.
ReplyDeleteThe European Court of Human Rights ruling against Ireland is, as far as I can glean from people over there, the main force behind this.
Even the BBC reported in 2012 ""The legislation is intended to put Ireland in compliance with a 2010 ruling by the European Court of Human Rights"".
Yet another reason why both our countries should leave the EU, eh?
Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
I've probably clogged up enough comment space here.
I only went on about it so much because Ireland's a special place to me.
Oh, it would have happened anyway. Right about now.
ReplyDeleteOf course he would still have won. That is what Ireland is really now like, and has been for decades. Outside the Union, anyway.
Funny how several other EU member-states have not noticed this requirement. Most of them, in fact. This new law is very Anglospherical.
There are very few EU member states with an outright ban on abortion-Poland, the only other, has also been condemned in an ECHR ruling recently, and will be changing its law shortly.
ReplyDeleteThat is pure speculation on your part, with no evidence to support it. Kenny didn't put abortion in his manifesto for the same reason no other Irish Prime Minister has- because he wouldn't be Prime Minister if he did.
It would never have been introduced if it wasn't for the ECHR ruling.
And the people would never have been dragooned into voting for the EU Constitution the second time around, if the 'Yes' campaign hadn't given every assurance under the sun (as they did) that the European courts would never interfere with Irish abortion.
Everywhere in the Union and outside it (not just Ireland) Catholic congregations are declining.
Christianity in Britain is on its knees.
This trend has nothing whatsoever to do with Ireland's long-overdue independence.
I'd love to see you survive 5 minutes over there, telling them they should be back in the Union!
Hilariously out of touch, as ever.
Poland? Believe it when you see it. The Irish have done this beacuse it what they want, and have probably wanted for two generations now.
ReplyDeleteRather than re-join the Union, they just move over here. The number of people who hold or would be entitled to hold Irish passports while living in Great Britain is larger than the entire population of the Irish Republic, and remained so throughout that country's supposed recent economic boom.